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In July 2020 you were appointed as a Commissioner to a new Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, what do you hope to bring to the table?
My professional and personal experiences, rooted in supporting many charities, being part and in and around the criminal justice system for just over 34 years, our independence of thinking and hopefully visionary approach which is not dependent on the support and expectations of others.
Young people’s pipeline to youth justice services – impact of words and actions, we have more power than we realise. Can you expand on this?
As my knowledge of people, children, adults, increases, I’m actually getting to understand the science better behind human relationships and also our development. The maturity of a person’s brain is not fully developed until the age of 24 years. Therefore, any interactions that we have with a person during that 24-year period, can have and does have a significant impact on their development and their actions. It’s possible to physically change the wiring of a person’s brain, when it’s in that developmental stage. Basically, people under the age of 25 are likely to be less risk averse, more impulsive, take risks and more easily influenced by their peers and their surroundings.
Children are children whether they are in the justice system, or not. Their vulnerabilities, education, keeping them safe and supporting them into a future life whether they feel part of society is important for all children.
Look for the potential, don’t judge young people by their sibling’s actions, there is a better way. A few points you recently raised with me. Can you give examples?
This is just as a result of people I have met who told me about many instances in which they have been judged because of the behaviour of their siblings. E.g., their sibling could be in and around the justice system and they get seen through the same lens as this sibling. I remember one individual who told me about how teachers judged him because of his brother and their expectations of him were reduced as a result. It was one teacher who showed that they cared which enabled him to go on and complete a degree, even though it appeared that the teachers in secondary school had written off.
What matters to you?
Family, friends, loyalty, trustworthiness and sticking up for those that others might overlook and seen the value in people.
Trust is especially important, you mentioned in a previous conversation that during our afternoon of talking and sharing together a level of trust was built up between us, can you expand on this?
Trust is important to me, it’s one of my values, being trustworthy. I have seen throughout my life how trust has helped to make things happen and the lack of trust or broken trust has made things happen slower or stop things from happening at all. This is true of my personal life and my professional life.
What drives you?
I have an absolute passion for life and for people.
I love people and am fascinated by the different outcomes for different people and what can be done to improve and change that. I’m a real people person which found this lockdown extremely difficult. Meeting people via video call is better than telephone conferencing but it has been difficult over the last year to reduce my level of face-to-face engagement with the different people I meet.
You appear to have a drive for order in your life, is that a true picture?
I don’t think I have a drive for order, my mind is just on fire and I’m excited about the possibilities and problem solving and making things better. It can be a little bit difficult for others to deal with and I feel that it is a central part of my dyslexic brain. I take ownership of my active mind and not try to curb it. Many people can’t deal with the number of ideas and things that I like to talk about or get involved in.
My personality type, using the Myers Briggs indicator is I NTJ, which is introverted – energised by quiet times alone (some might find that surprising) intuitive – sees patterns and possibilities, thinking prioritise logic and reason and judging – prefer structure and order.
How do you compartmentalise your life?
Since I left the police, I found it important to put more structure around how I interact with the world. I’ve had to create strategic bubbles and objectives so that I can understand what I am doing and why. Five years prior to leaving the police I created three strategic bubbles which I now use for the next chapter in my life.
1 – spend time doing the things I like doing such as family and friends, hobbies…
2 – I want to spend a certain amount of my time giving to others in whatever way I can provide benefit, whether it be through a charity, or supporting an individual…
3 – I’d also like to spend time in various paid roles or developing ideas but always ensuring that the things I get involved in sit with my values.
My dyslexic brain doesn’t really struggle with putting things into compartments if I ask it to. I don’t get too stressed out about having a lot of things on, in a certain way it excites me and stimulates me.
Your parents instilled values in you, how has that enabled you in life?
Not just by parents, when you have a loving upbringing and a loving extended family, it provides you with an inner strength and a strong sense of your own values. I was told on numerous occasions I love you by my aunties and sometimes my uncles. Even my cousins would say privately to me that they love me when someone says that to you and you are not expecting it, it is really powerful in a positive way.
Does your drive and determination also come from your parents?
The short answer is yes, although I didn’t realise it until later on in life. People kept on asking me what drives you, what keeps you so passionate, so positive and caring about others. When I was younger, I remember having a conversation with my father “you are going to have to work four times as hard as others to get on”, a conversation that has stayed with me. Once I joined the police, he would always tell people I was one rank above the rank I saw a sense of pride on his face and a little bit of mystery, but he helped drive my career in policing.
When I went for my interview as Superintendent, I wore my dad’s suit, which is older than me, and when I joined the Youth Justice Board and had my first official photograph, I wore one of my dad’s ties. I suppose it was a way of remembering him and keeping him near me although he isn’t physically with me, but up and definitely in heaven.
What obstacles did you encounter with your dream of being a police officer?
Not sure what obstacles I encountered; I was focused from an early age. I first wrote to the Home Office and sent in an application form when I was either 13 or 14. Some unknown civil servant took the time to write a letter to me personally, to encourage me to reapply when I was 18½ and send some information about joining the police. That was enough to continue and drive my passion and vision and becoming a police officer.
I suppose some of the barriers I had I failed getting into the police cadets and I didn’t get into the West Midlands police when I first applied. That is why I went to London. I loved my time in London and I have made really amazing friends. But 20 years later they recognised the error of their ways haha and accepted me as a Chief Inspector and I retired as Superintendent in my home region, where I was born and bred and that filled me with a sense of pride.
“Just get on with it and don’t make a fuss” is that your attitude?
I don’t realise that I have that attitude, but it’s when things are pointed out to you, you realise that’s what you are like.
I remember once during my lunch break, I was getting my car tax from the post office, I was in my civilian suit. Two men armed with a knife in the queue in front of me, attacked another man in an unprovoked and violent way. The post office was rammed with people, I dived at the person with the knife. It was quite a nasty struggle and I was on my own. The whole post office emptied with just one member of the public staying behind to help. When backup arrived, I went back to the office and continued with my work. It wasn’t until the criminal investigation department or CID rang to speak with me that my colleagues in the office found out what had happened. They were shocked that I calmly walked back into the office and got on with my work without saying anything. I was commended by the judge at court and by a senior police officer for my actions.
I suppose getting on with it without making a fuss has its pros and cons, it can lead to people overlooking you and not realising what you are capable of. It is not within my nature to make a fuss of publicity, it’s not my natural environment and I’m definitely not in my comfort zone.
Tell me about your fundraising ventures
I have created an informal organisation consisting of me and whoever I can get to partner with me – it’s called overcoming your challenges to achieve. We have raised, around £33 – £35,000 for different charities such as Sport Birmingham, Birmingham and Solihull women’s aid, Care of police survivors. All achieved through abseiling down one of Birmingham’s tallest buildings. I’m terrified of heights and it didn’t get easier the second time round; in fact, it was worse because I knew what to expect even though I was supported by an amazing para-athlete Christopher Skelley.
I have also been locked in cells overnight and completed Birmingham’s 13 peak challenge raising money for a young child with brain cancer.
Currently I am trying to raise, with others just over £3 million to build a Cenotaph to remember and say thank you to team 999 and all those who are part of our emergency services.
What makes you happy/laugh?
Now this is a hard one I do laugh a lot or smile a lot. I have a very dry and sarcastic sense of humour, which I must control, because it’s not everybody’s cup of tea.
Things that make me happy are celebrating family occasions such as birthdays, christenings, also the similar type of things with friends. I enjoy socialising chatting with friends, I love a good debate about current affairs and enjoy objective conversations about what makes the world tick, I think sometimes people find these conversations hard, because they often overlap people values and what they believe.
What makes you cry?
I have found as I get older that some of the injustices and suffering that I see on the news have made me cry, it never used to, but I see more and more how people suffer because of an accident at birth or where they live, rather than anything that they have done in their lives. Those that have made others suffer upset me, especially when you hear the back stories behind the faces you see on the news, I find that extremely difficult to deal with. I do also have tears of joy rather than sadness. I have only cried in work once and that was when I told my line manager, I was dyslexic, and the response floored me.
Who inspires you and how can you or do you inspire others?
People in general inspire me, not just those who have achieved a significant level of fame, but also ordinary people who deal with ordinary issues on a day-to-day basis. Many people I interacted with as a police officer have left a trace on me and supported my onward journey and development. These people have touched and strengthened my life. I might let you Faith answer that question about how I inspire others, I always find that quite difficult to answer, but people have said I’m inspirational and different and I have a positive impact on their lives, but I don’t realise it until people say it. So, it would be nice to hear what you Faith have seen in me and hopefully that doesn’t feel like a copout.
You seem to take all decisions carefully, retirement plans 5 years in advance, exit strategy, giving back, life split into strategic areas very upfront on what work/time you can commit to. If you reach saturation point you are no use to anyone. Is this a good summary of you?
I do think ahead, which is a benefit and a challenge. If I get behind the vision, I’m very passionate about achieving it, but I also have to be aware that my passion may put people off. I am constantly trying to reassure people that just because I’m passionate doesn’t mean I can’t change my mind… It has its downsides too, for example if my vision goes against the prevailing thinking. If it’s irrational and/or unfair I find it difficult to follow, even if it’s policy, law, et cetera. It does not mean that I would go against policies and laws without understand the consequences of them.
I’m not a maverick an organisation cannot trust, but I am prepared to stand up to things which are unfair.